Karate and Kung Fu

[Galford Weller]

It is important to separate what we see from movies, and what we can see in real martial art.

It is up to the martial artist himself to develop proper technique trough constant training.

[Randy]

 To be honest, I highly doubt anyone really teaches "Real" Kung Fu anymore.

 It's a lost art, I think. The only "Real" Kung Fu I know of that's still taught in a martial context is Wing Chun.

 As far as I know, even the Shaolin temple has turned into a money-sucking business endorsed by the Chinese government passing off Wushu for Real kung fu.

[SteyrAUG]

To be honest, I highly doubt anyone really teaches "Real" Kung Fu anymore.

 It's a lost art, I think. The only "Real" Kung Fu I know of that's still taught in a martial context is Wing Chun.

 As far as I know, even the Shaolin temple has turned into a money-sucking business endorsed by the Chinese government passing off Wushu for Real kung fu.

Real Kung fu exist all over, but as you noted it isn't in Shaolin. We need to remember they had several generation where you could be put in a camp for practicing martial arts due to the cultural revolution. We also don't know how authentic Wing Chun is because it literally came down to one person. What if he forgot some of it or made changes...how would we know.

But when martial artists fled the mainland after 1949 they took completely intact systems to Taiwan, Hong Kong and the US as well as other places. There are so many genuine Chinese boxing systems with fully intact lineages it isn't funny. The problem is most people in the US have no idea what "real kung fu" is so when they see it and it looks nothing like the movies they keep looking until they find some absurd school that looks like what they saw in the movies. As a result the movie kung fu school are far more successful.

It can be extremely difficult to find real kung fu as a result. First you have to actually know enough about it to recognize it when you see it and you have to find somebody still trying to run a successful school teaching it. Thankfully men like Ark Wong, Gin Foon Mark, Brendan Lai, Doc Fai Wong, Yang Jwing Ming, Chan Poi and Adam Su have established genuine, successful schools in the US with many followers.

[christ uzumaki]

if we talk about art, karate and kungfu is different, but if we talk about fight, i thing both, karate or kungfu user, will use same style, hitting, and kicking, and minimum artistic style 

[Choggy]

To be honest, I highly doubt anyone really teaches "Real" Kung Fu anymore.

 It's a lost art, I think. The only "Real" Kung Fu I know of that's still taught in a martial context is Wing Chun.

 As far as I know, even the Shaolin temple has turned into a money-sucking business endorsed by the Chinese government passing off Wushu for Real kung fu.

As a Wushu practitioner I beg to differ. (and feel a little offended, too)
Gongfu means more or less 'achievement'. And that's the first thing I was taught when I started practicing Wushu. So 'the real Kung Fu' is just a mere misinterpretation. But let's not get into semantics.

I will continue to consider Wushu a 'real' martial art (hence superior to many - not all - forms of Karate) as long as it will prove to effective in combat. I was never a Taolu guy, I learned some forms (Changquan mostly - even though I favored Nanquan as a style more - heh, not so 'flexible' and not so much 'flying'), but more of a Sanda guy (I always liked combat and to know how to defend myself). Why I consider it effective is because I had the opportunity of meeting inside the ring various martial artists from various styles (many styles of Karate, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Savate, Boxing, Jiu Jitsu, Capoeira and so on) and I could not only defend myself, but also land a few hits that put me on top. What I have learned has more than once helped me in the street. At one point I was even dreaming of a Lei Tai match, but I grew old enough to know how NOT to endanger my life.
Please note: I am definitely NOT bashing any style or any form of Martial Arts here, as I do respect all of them. I just felt like I needed to stand up for my own.

Peace!

[SteyrAUG]

As a Wushu practitioner I beg to differ. (and feel a little offended, too)
Gongfu means more or less 'achievement'. And that's the first thing I was taught when I started practicing Wushu. So 'the real Kung Fu' is just a mere misinterpretation. But let's not get into semantics.

I will continue to consider Wushu a 'real' martial art (hence superior to many - not all - forms of Karate) as long as it will prove to effective in combat. I was never a Taolu guy, I learned some forms (Changquan mostly - even though I favored Nanquan as a style more - heh, not so 'flexible' and not so much 'flying'), but more of a Sanda guy (I always liked combat and to know how to defend myself). Why I consider it effective is because I had the opportunity of meeting inside the ring various martial artists from various styles (many styles of Karate, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Savate, Boxing, Jiu Jitsu, Capoeira and so on) and I could not only defend myself, but also land a few hits that put me on top. What I have learned has more than once helped me in the street. At one point I was even dreaming of a Lei Tai match, but I grew old enough to know how NOT to endanger my life.
Please note: I am definitely NOT bashing any style or any form of Martial Arts here, as I do respect all of them. I just felt like I needed to stand up for my own.

Peace!

And that terminology is a big part of what confuses the issue.

As you noted Kung Fu / Gung Fu means "a man of skill or expertise", but this can be in anything. You can demonstrate Kung Fu in cabinet making. Of course the word was misused in the US (especially after the TV show of the same name) and it became synonymous with Chinese boxing.

The correct term for martial art in Chinese is WuShu, but again we have a problem. It has become synonymous with the Chinese gymnastic / martial spectator sport developed by the communists during the early 70s and is almost completely unrelated to genuine Chinese boxing styles.

More correct terms are Chuan Fa (literally "fist way") which is the equivalent of Chinese boxing, often used in conjunction with the specific style such as Tang Long Chuan Fa (Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing). Another common term is Kua Shu which more or less translates as National Art and the term is quite popular on Taiwan which considers itself to be the true and only remaining Republic of China.

In a perfect world the term Kung Fu would be replaced with WuShu and they would come up with a new name for Communist martial gymnastics (ironically Kung Fu would be a very acceptable name for that performance art) but it's very hard to get people who only know what they see in the movies to learn correct terminology.

Perhaps there is no better example than the film Bloodsport. Prior to that film everyone involved in genuine martial arts knew Kumite meant "sparring" and it came in varieties like Ippon Kumite (One Step Sparring), Nippon Kumite (Two Step Sparring), Jiyu Kumite (Free Sparring), etc. and a tournament or competition was known as a Shiai. But after that movie even people who were taught correctly began to refer to competitions as "kumite" because it sounded cool and so more people would understand what they were talking about.

[KungFoolin]

To be honest, I highly doubt anyone really teaches "Real" Kung Fu anymore.

I have owned my own Kung Fu (more properly, Traditional Wushu) school for over 16 years.  I would hate to think that what I am teaching is not "real".

We have students that are more focused on the flashy and fancy movie like stuff.  We also have students that are only concerned with practical, applicable combat.

It is tough to find good Traditional Wushu teachers but they are out there. They don't seem to have followed a lot of the commercial trends that a lot of the Karate and Taekwondo schools have.

[KungFoolin]

Perhaps there is no better example than the film Bloodsport. Prior to that film everyone involved in genuine martial arts knew Kumite meant "sparring" and it came in varieties like Ippon Kumite (One Step Sparring), Nippon Kumite (Two Step Sparring), Jiyu Kumite (Free Sparring), etc. and a tournament or competition was known as a Shiai. But after that movie even people who were taught correctly began to refer to competitions as "kumite" because it sounded cool and so more people would understand what they were talking about.

Funny to see Bloodsport mentioned.  The one and only Frank Dux visited my school about two weeks ago.  

 He is friends with one of my student's parents.

After a short visit he invited me to become a part of his brotherhood/fellowship of teachers.  

I was so humbled and honored.  

So much so that when he left I think I sprained my eyes from rolling them so hard.  

[GroundedI]

actually what we know as kung fu is actually wrong kung fu means that you mastered something so you could have kung fu in for example drawing or cooking
and in my opinion the big difference lies in wether you see fighting as a sport or as fighting, sport has rules fighting does not
so in a way style does not really matter it's all about training and adaptivity hence i'd recommend reading the book of 5 rings by myamoto musashi,
i think it's not only learning a couple of good moves but also understand you'r opponent.
i think it's safe to say that it doesn't matter what you learned a streetfighter can kick a teakwando master to pulps and the other way around it just depends on the training and understanding of the fighters
that's to say in a test of skill between fighters but that would mean rules and i don't think you can set rules in a real fight,
for example if you where to have a groundfighter fight a kickboxer on kickboxing terms the chances are big he would loose the fight aswell as the other way around

this are my 2 cents bout it

[Randy]

 I think I seriously need to rephrase that.

 To me, "Kung Fu" is what I say when I'm referring to actual "Chinese Boxing". Stuff like Nam Pai Chuan and so on. When I say "Wushu" I'm usually referring to the Performance stuff seen in movies.

 Terms can become highly confused and perverted over time, and I think all this misunderstanding is what's gonna kill "Kung Fu" and make "Wushu" take over the world. Then the Chinese communist government will be Happy while we're all Crappy.

 If it were a perfect world, the Shaolin would still be legitimate buddhist monks practicing the beautiful, flashy, yet frighteningly effective martial art we all refer to as Kung Fu.

 But seeing as it's not a perfect world, they're a money sucking, government owned business teaching people to perform in front of people and giving them a false sense of martial ability.

 I mention again, when I say "Kung Fu" I mean REAL stuff. When I say "Wushu" I mean Communist Dancing. Even a slight confusion between the two could cause a huge shitstorm which could result in various members saying various derogatory things we're gonna regret in the morning.

 But not only has Kung Fu come to this tragic state of confusion, but so have other arts. Tae Kwon Do for example. It's been reduced to a regulated Sport, Judo following closely behind.  Karate has this problem too, but thankfully there are still schools that teach it the way it was meant to be tought.

 I mean, there may be a damn good many "Legit" Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, etc. schools out there, but confusion between self-defense, sport, and performance along with big business and dishonest practice and Hollywood have all made for a terrible perversion of the martial arts.

 I will conclude this post by saying this: It's our Obligation to preserve the arts we love in order to keep them from becoming something Controlled. The arts have protected some of us at some point or another. I think it's about time we start protecting them.

[GroundedI]

sorry to disapoint you randy but the kung fu ur talking about does not excist in either a perfect world or an inperfect 1 there is no real stuff in that concept.
kung fu/gong fu litarly means skill/achievments in anything from boiling eggs to whatever
in a black and white view the fighting skills of monks 1000 years ago may have been effective but if you were to compare that to modern time's there way of warefare/ fighting would have been as outdated as a horse and carrage compared to a car what you'r trying to compare cannot be compared
the difference ur talking about is wether you see martial arts as a sports or as a tool of war are you applying rules or not
as i said before it does not matter what kind of fighting you learn it depends the skill of the person no matter what style he's using

[Choggy]

Flashy Communist (or not, less relevant imho) gymnastics = Taolu. And it is, indeed a part of Wushu, just as Kata is a part of Karate.
What most of us are into (not all, mind you) is Sanda (Sanshou). Combat.

We have students that are more focused on the flashy and fancy movie like stuff.  We also have students that are only concerned with practical, applicable combat.

And yes, I believe it is a Sifu's job to help his students be the best in what THEY believe would benefit them. E.g. my Sifu believed that Sanda cannot exist w/o Taolu and that one had to know at least some important and/or basic forms in order to have the knowledge for Sanda.

Peace!

[SteyrAUG]

 But not only has Kung Fu come to this tragic state of confusion, but so have other arts. Tae Kwon Do for example. It's been reduced to a regulated Sport, Judo following closely behind.  Karate has this problem too, but thankfully there are still schools that teach it the way it was meant to be tought.

 I mean, there may be a damn good many "Legit" Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, etc. schools out there, but confusion between self-defense, sport, and performance along with big business and dishonest practice and Hollywood have all made for a terrible perversion of the martial arts.

 I will conclude this post by saying this: It's our Obligation to preserve the arts we love in order to keep them from becoming something Controlled. The arts have protected some of us at some point or another. I think it's about time we start protecting them.

If you get in with the right people you can find it. Probably won't be at the local strip mall with a 6 month black belt course.

TKD (aka Take Your Dough) is one of the most abused arts prostituted for commercial gain and promises of Olympic contention. But if you sift through all the nonsense you can find guys like the former ROK soldiers I train with off and on. While they are lowly 2 dan grade black belts they can destroy the vast majority of 8th dan and above TKD "masters" in this country. That is because they were trained properly to be martial artists.

And yes, there is an obligation. If somebody takes the time to instruct you correctly, you assume an obligation to be a caretaker of that instruction and to "one day" pass it on to a suitable student.

In reality all of the nonsense out there from fake Krav Maga, ridiculous Kung Fu, MMA and whatever flavor of the month is being touted as the new "deadliest style ever" is wonderful. It drives genuine and authentic martial arts back underground where they should be and keeps them out of the hands of retards wearing Tapout shirts. Almost nobody who fancies themselves a martial artist in this country has seen advanced Chinese boxing methods and that gives those real martial artists a distinct advantage.

Same holds true for anyone who practices genuine Te styles, or even Korean systems like Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, etc. if they train and practice properly. Every white belt, genuine black belt, not so genuine black belt, Navy SEAL and kid who watches too many movies all know the same front snap kick and back fist punch. What makes each one uniquely different from the other is how often they train and what they are training for. That front snap kick can be developed to win speed tournaments or it can be developed to destroy ribs and collapse a lung. It's the same kick, just depends who is doing it and why.

[SteyrAUG]

sorry to disapoint you randy but the kung fu ur talking about does not excist in either a perfect world or an inperfect 1 there is no real stuff in that concept.
kung fu/gong fu litarly means skill/achievments in anything from boiling eggs to whatever
in a black and white view the fighting skills of monks 1000 years ago may have been effective but if you were to compare that to modern time's there way of warefare/ fighting would have been as outdated as a horse and carrage compared to a car what you'r trying to compare cannot be compared
the difference ur talking about is wether you see martial arts as a sports or as a tool of war are you applying rules or not
as i said before it does not matter what kind of fighting you learn it depends the skill of the person no matter what style he's using

Sorry to disappoint but you are wrong.

Just like orthodox koryu Te systems exist so do many completely authentic Chinese boxing systems, especially from the Ching Wu schools developed to preserve them during the 1930s. I noted many significant teachers earlier on.

As for "nobody fights like that today." Well no kidding. But just as I'm not going to drop into a horse stance and start locking out reverse punches if attacked, I'm also not gonna start lion dancing. I thought it was common knowledge of all martial artists that ancient methods are adapted to modern needs. This has been done for centuries all along as the old foundations styles were continuously "translated" to the needs of the modern world.

So for example in 7 star Praying Mantis we do the formal Ou Lou Tsai exercise in a Hill Climbing Stance so that it is learned correctly and completely and the student is aware of the classical applications. But then as we apply it to fighting techniques and in sparring it is done from a medium stance and is very streamlined to be a faster and more fluid movement. But it is the same Ou Lou Tsai and you can fight with it if you understand the technique in it's essence.

[GroundedI]

steyr please read to what i'm saying first of all in a black and white view, i'm afraid you picked the wrong context of what i was reffering too
the point i'm trying to make is that you have to seperate  sport from fighting i suppose you could say as an example again not a precise 1
that's why you would see so many sanda fighters in the mma aswell as wushu or tkd practicioners are winning in the mma (not)
and that's why they prefer krav maga over wushu in for example the army as long as you see fighting as a sports the discusion is pointless

and as for you'r noone fights like that today when was the last time you saw hand to hand combat with knifes in a war??
last time i checked that was 500 years ago or so (roughly) i mean do you bring a tank to the battlefield park it and start shooting with a handgun thus making 1000 year old forms of warfare even if they'r adapted to modern way's kinda absolute unless ofcourse you seen a chinese boxers knock out a tank with 1 kick
in that perspective what i'm saying is correct.
so once more the question here is not about what you'r trying to compare in styles or forms but if you see it as a sport or as fighting