Freestyle Forum
VIDEOS => Archive => ...all other nunchaku videos => 2014 => Topic started by: Rellizate on January 20, 2008, 09:30:09 PM
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(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2179/dangersigncopyjw3.gif)
So, you've decided to do a bit of a fire huh? Well first, there's some stuff you should know on fuels.
Fuel Types:
Fuel is an essential part of fire spinning - without it I'd just be. Well spinning!
Some fuels are relatively safe, but some are pretty damn dangerous, and so, you need to know what you're going to be dealing with.
There are two main types of fuels - hot fuels & cold fuels. As you guessed, this does refer to the the temperature, but also to the flash point & hydrocarbon length of the fuel.
Hot fuels as a rule are more dangerous. This is because they vapourise easier into the air.
This makes them;
-Easier to light.
-More likely to expload.
-Give a bigger flame.
-Give a shorter burn time.
It's not usually a good idea to spin completely with a 100% hot fuel, as it does create quite a hazard to both you & the spectators.
Cold fuels are less dangerous. They;
-Are harder to light as they are less voilatile.
-Are less likely to expload.
-Give a slightly smaller & more manageable flame.
-Give a longer burn time (the fuel is burnt off slower).
If you're a beginner, you definitely want to be using a cold fuel. In fact, I almost always use a cold fuel for spinning, apart from when I'm performing when I add a bit of hot fuel to make them easier to light and to make a more impressive flame. We'll get onto this a bit later.
Mixing Fuels:
As cold fuels are hard to light, and hot fuels are too easy to light (they can burst into flame at even the suggestion of a lighter) you can do a clever little thing, whereby you mix the fuels.
Some standard mixing ratios are:
Cold:Hot - 75:25: This is what I use for shows. It lights up easier than pure cold and gives a brighter and bigger flame. It doesn't last quite as long though.
Cold:Hot - 50:50: A bit too easy to light in my opinion. Still, some people like it.
Cold:Hot - 25:75: This fuel blend will burst into flame at even the suggestion of a lighter. Do not use unless you know exactly what you're doing.
Fuels:
Cold Fuels:
-Paraffin (kerosene): This is the main fuel I use. It does burn with quite a bit of smoke, and tends to leave a residue on your wicks & components, but it's not too much of a problem. Overall a great fuel!
-Lamp Oil: This is just paraffin with additives to make it burn a bit cleaner. It's a bit more toxic, and a lot more expensive than paraffin, but if the smoke gets to you, use this.
-Citronella Fuel: The key ingredient in mosquito repellants. I find that it smells horrible, but some people like it. If you use this, you can be sure of one thing. No mosquito bites for you!
Medium Fuels:
These are actually fuels that are already blended for you!
-Fire Water/Fire Liquid: There have been lots of rumours about this, but all it is infact is paraffin mixed with loads of additives to make it tasteless, odourless and residue's. However, it is very toxic.
-BBQ Lighter Fluid: This is paraffin with an additive to make it less Smokey. It is a bit more voilatile than paraffin though, so use with care.
Hot Fuels:
-Zippo/Lighter Fluid: Virtually smokeless, and leaves little residue. However it is very expensive, and almost impossible to find it bottles big enough.
-Coleman fuel/Naptha/White gas: The typical fuel that the Americans use. It's easy to light - perhaps a little too easy, but nice if you blend it. Be careful about fuel transfers though with this stuff though. Be careful with bouncing (with chucks) with this fuel.
Fuels to avoid:
-Meths/Methonal/Methylated Spirits: This stuff is very poisonous. Just one teaspoon is enough to make a man go blind & insane. AVOID AT ALL COSTS!
-Petrol/Gass/Gasolene: Very very voilatile. That small bomb you're creating around you dipping container by using petrol WILL expload at some point, so avoid at all costs.
-Lighter gel: Designer to be very easy to light and expload. Exactly what you DON'T want. Do not use.
-White spirit/Paint remover e.t.c Anything made for household use is a big no-no. If it isn't made to be burnt, don't use it at all!
One last thing:
All fire and forms of firespinning is dangerous. When starting firespinning you have to be responsible, or risk seriously injuring yourself or your spectators. However, if you follow this thread, you should be fine.
Thanks!
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now this is just fantastic :respect:
loads of info in there that i didnt even know :wink: :firey
thanks for the work your putting into this dude, you rock!
big big respect to you dude :mrgreen:
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Hah you know where the applaud button is. :D :P
THere's more coming soon!
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Excellent Post :happy-firey:
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Great post [applauded]
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I don't wanna seem like a jerk but...
If your gonna cross post someone else's research and work, I think it's appropriate to at least give props to Invader_Xan at Do More Poi for the initial write up :)
http://www.domorepoi.com/reloaded/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5080
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Ahh yeah thanks to Xan for the initial work on info over msn.
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Know your fuel source!!!!
Here is a great link to the comparisons between Paraffin and Naptha!
http://nafaa.pbwiki.com/FuelBusters
I'm one of the few people online that use straight naptha. I like knowing when it's going to ignite, short burn times, low fumes, and high impressive flames. Can burn indoors etc.
However, paraffin has some kick ass pluses too. Doesn't ignite easily so it gets rid of some of the "Natural Selection Factor". Low flames so it helps confidence and long burn times.
It really is totally a by your opinion thing. All I can say is... do your reasearch.. do your testing!
This is what I feel that people should know about their fuels and mixtures if applicable BEFORE performing:
How long will your prop burn?
How high are the flames?
How easily does it transfer to your clothing? This will vary by fuel source, and the wrap of the wick.
How does your fuel react to an open flame source? (Naptha, instant light. Paraffin, you can quench your fire prop in the fuel (read: put it out in the fuel))
How much surface area does your fuel need to ignite? (If your surface area is too large... even paraffin will ignite!)
Do you have the MSDS sheets for your fuel?
What do you do if you ingest your fuel or get some in your eye?
The biggest trick I can give everyone is to put your fuel in a container that doesn't have a huge surface area.. has a lid and put it inside a larger bucket.. with a lid :)
For example:
We use a paint can and put that inside a 5 gallon bucket.
Both of these fuel types are easy to ignite but are not explosive. If you cover them.. they suffocate and go out.
Yes... this is ONE of the reasons people do not use automobile gas. There's alot more and alot more important reasons not to use it hehehe but this is one of them.
All fuel sources should be treated like Naptha. This is because if your out with a group of people... you may not know what fuel source or mixture they are using :)
Alot of people like to mix. Get the long burn times of Paraffin with the quick ignite and bigger flames from Naptha.
Not something I've messed with too much yet. For now after spinning my dual chucks like a madman on crack for 3 minutes I'm pretty much gassed, so I haven't needed longer burn times yet :)
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Very informative, thanks for posting :thumb:
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You can mix certain chemicals into the fuel to get different color flames too.
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_fire
This one has the recipes:
http://www.pyrocreations.com/colored_fire_compositions__flares_and_torches
Metacafe
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/701569/how_to_make_colored_fire/
Found this online:
http://www.juggling.org/help/torches/colour.html
Coloured Flames
Many people have asked about this and many have played with coloured flames. On the whole I would say from my experience that there is not a great deal which can be done in this area by the amateur not willing to spend a lot of money and time.
Colouring flame is done by dissolving salts (metal compounds such as sodium chloride) in a solvent which also acts as the fuel. When the fuel burns, it also causes the metal ions to emit on their characteristic wavelengths (just like the flame colour tests in chemistry). To see the colour it is important that the flame colour does not mask it.
The standard fuel for juggling is paraffin (kerosene) or lamp fuel (eg Coleman's). See my file on torches and fire in the FAQ for more info. Unfortunately the metal salts do not dissolve in these fuels which are mostly short and mid-length alkanes and variants, as they are non-polar. You need a polar fuel such as ethanol, which has the advantage of also producing a fairly colourless flame. This is available as 'Meths' or 'Industrial methylated alcohol' with impurities of no consequence (unless you want to drink it!).
Be warned that meths is poisonous. If ingested, drink milk of magnesia (lacking M.o.M., drink plain milk or even water). Do NOT induce vomiting: as corrosive liquids burn just as much on the way up as on the way down, this is not recommended by medical and first aid organisations. If splashed in the eye wash with running water immediately and seek medical advice - meths is particularly toxic to the optic nerve. Be especially careful when mixing -- wear eye protection and thin rubber/latex gloves.
Meths is more expensive than paraffin - about UK$2 per litre in early 1993 and available from most chemists. Also the chemist may refuse to sell large quantities - buy a few litres at a time.
Chemicals for Coloured Flames
Start with the best - boric acid is cheap (about 5 pounds for 500g, enough for 20 or more litres of meths) and gives an excellent bright green colour. Dissolve as much as will go into solution. Any precipitate can be dissolved in more meths. Dip and burn as a normal club - remember to shake off excess carefully. Boric acid can be obtained at chemists and through laboratory supplies. It is a mild irritant but not especially dangerous.
Note: All chemicals will nearly destroy your wicks and clubs if mistreated. After use burn off at least once in clean meths (with boric acid this gives a nice colour still). Then burn with paraffin before storing. Preferably use them on cheap props and home made toys of metal with easily replaced wicks.
Before use, clean the torch of paraffin by burning it as long as possible without damaging the wick. The first one or two times the colour of paraffin (yellow) will continue to burn with the chemicals, producing an eerie two tone effect if you are lucky.
RED Lithium chloride gives a gentle red colour. It is not a very bright flame, it is expensive (more like 20 pounds for 500g when I last tried it) and more difficult to get hold of - lab supplies again being the best option (I shan't put addresses as they will differ for every country. post to rec.pyrotechnics for a list of suppliers).
BLUE Blue is nearly impossible to achieve as it requires a very cool flame. The mark of a good pyrotechnician is his blue. Potassium acetate is wimpish and a poor colour but cheap. Copper salts start green and only go blue briefly as the flame dies away. Both are quite cheap.
This too:
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howtos/a/aa052703a.htm
Flame Colorants
Color Chemical
Carmine Lithium Chloride
Red Strontium Chloride
Orange Calcium Chloride (a bleaching powder)
Yellow Sodium Chloride (table salt)
or Sodium Carbonate
Yellowish Green Borax
Green Copper Sulfate
Blue Copper Chloride
Violet 3 parts Potassium Sulfate
1 part Potassium Nitrate (saltpeter)
Purple Potassium Chloride
White Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salts)
Another one:
http://www.campfiredude.com/campfire-magic.shtml
Chemical Flame Change
Copper Chloride BLUE flame
Borax
(laundry) LIGHT GREEN flame
Copper Sulfate
(tree root killer for plumbers) GREEN flame
Strontium Chloride RED flame
Potassium Chloride
(water softener salt) PURPLE flame
Calcium Chloride BLUE flame
Lithium Chloride PINK flame
Alum GREEN flame
Sodium Chloride
(table salt) ORANGE flame
Magnesium Sulfate
(Epsom salts) WHITE flame
Sugar sprinkle into fire for tiny sparks
Powder Coffee Creamer throw a handful into the flames above the fire for small sparkly flashes
Flour toss a small amount into flame to make a flash flame
Iron filings toss a small bit into flame to make gold sparks
Powdered aluminum toss a small bit into flame to make silver sparks
Magnesium shavings toss a small bit into flame to make very bright silver sparks
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wow kvg, that was awsome :respect:
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Watch out using copper...
That stuff can really screw you up. It's great for fireworks, but it's a whole new ball of wax when your standing in the fumes.
Great info kvg!!
The tip about using a cheap seat of props for colored fuels is A-1!
Boric acid is prolly one of the most commonly used I've heard about. :)
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Cold:Hot - 75:25: This is what I use for shows. It lights up easier than pure cold and gives a brighter and bigger flame. It doesn't last quite as long though.
so which exactly 2 fuels u use for firespinning when u mix 75:25 ?
anyway im wondering what kind of "cloth" i should use to stick on the chucks...
thanks :)
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so which exactly 2 fuels u use for firespinning when u mix 75:25 ?
anyway im wondering what kind of "cloth" i should use to stick on the chucks...
thanks :)
Mix any hot fuel with any cold fuel. The cloth should always be kevlar blend. You can buy that from homeofpoi.com However, if cloth is no available, cotton is suitable for one or two burns usually.
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Most people that mix 75:25 do it 75% parafiin and 25% naptha.
Just enough naptha to give an easy ignition and a little bit bigger flames, while still getting the longer burn times of the parafin.
My wife uses a 50:50 blend for her Fans.
Just do alot of experimenting, reading and studying from ALOT of sources on both fuels before settling in on something.
You have GOT to know your fuel... or your guaranteed to get hurt!
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Fire section is looking proper! Great job Rellizate :respect:
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hey guys... just wondering how many times i should wrap the kevlar around the chucks...
how many levels hold flame how long for?
cheers
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hey guys... just wondering how many times i should wrap the kevlar around the chucks...
how many levels hold flame how long for?
cheers
Errm I use 50cm for when I wrap it, so that's a good starting point. I think that's about 5-6 times round. :-/
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ok thats good... how long does it hold the flame before it dies?
and how wide kevlar do u use?
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This will answer ALL your questions :)
http://www.freestyleforum.net/index.php?topic=3279.msg38443#msg38443
Follow those instructions and use paraffin to start with. From there you can try out naptha or mixtures and different construction methods.
Start with 100% paraffin though.
Yes.. this coming from someone who uses 100% naptha.. :) Paraffin is alot more... how should I say... user friendly :)
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ok thats good... how long does it hold the flame before it dies?
and how wide kevlar do u use?
When I used tubecore, I used 50cm of 65mm wick each end. This burns for about 3 mins.
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crap.. firechucking is pretty expensive :(
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Not really. £12 for the chucks. That lasts you up to 5 years.
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yup chucks r cheap.. but buying the kevlar wicks r pretty expensive.... for pair it would be like 2m (half metr for each stick) and it would cost around 12bucks...
hmmm right... it is not too bad i thought :)...
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yup chucks r cheap.. but buying the kevlar wicks r pretty expensive.... for pair it would be like 2m (half metr for each stick) and it would cost around 12bucks...
hmmm right... it is not too bad i thought :)...
thats 60bucks for 5times of chucking.... that sounds expensively already :x
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Huh? Kevlar wick last for hundreds of burns. That's the whole point!
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Huh? Kevlar wick last for hundreds of burns. That's the whole point!
huh? i thought it gonna burn out so i will need to change the wick after few burnings
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The wick itself doesn't burn (if you use kevlar, 'cause it's not flammable) it's the fuel that burns.
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huh? i thought it gonna burn out so i will need to change the wick after few burnings
I've burnt my nunchucks more than 200 times. :)
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so if i get it...
i should wrap the 65mm x 1.3mm like 5 times around each stick... then mix 75% of Paraffin and 25% of Naptha into some bottle and then just put the stick into the bottle for a few minutes and then i can imidiately burn it?
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There's a little more subtlety to it than that, but it's the basic idea. I don't personally recommend mixing your fuels 'cause I like how pure paraffin handles just fine.
EDIT: Watch this. http://www.homeofpoi.com/lessons_all/teach/1_2_2
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Don't mix your fuels to start.
Go with 100% paraffiin.
Later after you've got a feel for what your doing, 6 months down the road or something, then you can start to experiment.
Experimenting off the start is just a reciepe for getting hurt.
Please also read all the safety articles out there concerning having a spotter, clothes to wear etc!
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thanks for the post....gives me a lot of options besides my usual fuel combo
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Nice thread! :bigdance:
Thanks for putting this up. :respect:
Now to start experimenting. :happy-firey:
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i just burnt my chucks for first time... the first time i was realy scared to burn myself or whatever... anyway wasnt it so bad so for second burn i use both chucks... anyway the chucks didnt hold the fire for long... like 1 minute... i think thats because when i put it out from the paraffin then i let it drop... the second time i tried to do NOT drop anything... and it did hold the fire for long time... but it wasnt safety! cause i felt how the burning drops frying from the chucks to myself (face etc)...
so any idea how to keep the flame for longer time than a minute?
anyway im use to be REALY fast with chucks... much more faster than almost every1 (i dont want to be bigheaded but its true)
so may the speed can stop the flame?
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First off..
You need to spin off the chucks in an area away from the burn area to get the excess fuel off.
That's the worst way to do it... other ways include using spin cans. (I should make a vid on how to make spin cans and use them for chucks).
Or you can use a plastic glove and squeeze the chucks to get the excess fuel off.
Paraffin is a very heavy liquid. You need to let the chucks soak for a LONG time before the first burn.. I'm talking hours. After that, you still need to soak for a good 15 minutes I'd say before spinning. Alot of it depends on how tight the wrap of the kevlar is.
The tighter you wrap the kevlar the longer it takes to soak... but the longer the kevlar lasts as it doesn't have as much give and wear and tear when they do hit the ground.
I believe you should get 3 minutes out of a burn with paraffin. I've done only minimal tests on the time difference but from what I have tested, paraffin burns for about 200% longer. I actually use twice as much kevlar as normal due to using naptha and my chucks are quite a bit heavier then normal.
It is entirely dependent on how much kevlar you used, how tight the wrap and how long you let it soak.
Trying soaking them for longer first.
Don't forget the spinning off!! That is so bloody well important with chucks as doing bounces provides a huge chance for fuel to come off the chucks and land on your clothes!
Also try large spinning motions for the first 10-20 seconds to let any excess fuel burn off before you get to bouncing and going crazy. Think of it as build up time for the drama ;)
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First off..
You need to spin off the chucks in an area away from the burn area to get the excess fuel off.
That's the worst way to do it... other ways include using spin cans. (I should make a vid on how to make spin cans and use them for chucks).
Or you can use a plastic glove and squeeze the chucks to get the excess fuel off.
Paraffin is a very heavy liquid. You need to let the chucks soak for a LONG time before the first burn.. I'm talking hours. After that, you still need to soak for a good 15 minutes I'd say before spinning. Alot of it depends on how tight the wrap of the kevlar is.
The tighter you wrap the kevlar the longer it takes to soak... but the longer the kevlar lasts as it doesn't have as much give and wear and tear when they do hit the ground.
I believe you should get 3 minutes out of a burn with paraffin. I've done only minimal tests on the time difference but from what I have tested, paraffin burns for about 200% longer. I actually use twice as much kevlar as normal due to using naptha and my chucks are quite a bit heavier then normal.
It is entirely dependent on how much kevlar you used, how tight the wrap and how long you let it soak.
Trying soaking them for longer first.
Don't forget the spinning off!! That is so bloody well important with chucks as doing bounces provides a huge chance for fuel to come off the chucks and land on your clothes!
Also try large spinning motions for the first 10-20 seconds to let any excess fuel burn off before you get to bouncing and going crazy. Think of it as build up time for the drama ;)
Good advice. Generally for future burns, 15minutes is a bit of an overkill really. You only need to soak until the bubbles stop and then no more as the wick isn't actually absorbing anything anyway.
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gr88!!!!!!!! :respect: :respect:
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Does the thickness of the kevlar is important?? What thickness do you suggest me?
I never try to firechuck, but it looks fun... :-o :lol:
So if I have it, I must let the kevlar soak in the fuel for some times. After I get the excess fuel off by squeezing the kevlar with plastic gloves. I spin them to make sure to let go the excess of fuel. And now I can burn it??? (how do I put this on fire? I must make a little fire? ) I will use parafin.
I don't make my fire nunchaku yet. I don't have the material. I must go to buy them. I will try to make them next week, but if I can only get kevlar on internet, I won't be able to make them. :-(
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Use a lighter to light them. May I suggest perhaps buying your chucks (http://www.thestunthouse.com/firetoys/home.asp) instead of making them? I suggest thick kevlar it's width is something like 3mm.
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Use a lighter to light them. May I suggest perhaps buying your chucks (http://www.thestunthouse.com/firetoys/home.asp) instead of making them? I suggest thick kevlar it's width is something like 3mm.
Thanks for your help! :thumb:
I would like to buy them... but I'm not supposed to. :-P :-(
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Hey Rell, I used your information to make the Wiki article on fuels (http://nunchaku.wikia.com/wiki/Fuel). Hope you don't mind.
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Hey Rell, I used your information to make the Wiki article on fuels (http://nunchaku.wikia.com/wiki/Fuel). Hope you don't mind.
Give me some credit please. :)
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hey rel thanks for the work youve put into this thread, ijust wanted to clarify its possible and safe to mix lamp oil and colemans camp fuel. ive used both and see the dramatic difference in flame intensity and duration. i would love something in the middle.
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hey rel thanks for the work youve put into this thread, ijust wanted to clarify its possible and safe to mix lamp oil and colemans camp fuel. ive used both and see the dramatic difference in flame intensity and duration. i would love something in the middle.
Hey,
As they are both oil based fuels that will be fine.
Mixing oil with oil is fine, alcohol with alcohol is fine; but what you can't do is mix oil with alcohol. They will not mix, resulting in all kinds of crazy stuff happening to your wick.
:R
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cool thanks i just tryed out a 50/50 mix and it worked like a charm, a Goldilocks flame if you will.
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sweet tips guys! Im just starting out on this stuff at the moment, still a bit worried i might end up on fire :|
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I personally prefer gasoline souly because I'll pay $3 a gallon for gas over $11 a gallon for camp fuel any day.
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I personally prefer gasoline souly because I'll pay $3 a gallon for gas over $11 a gallon for camp fuel any day.
O_o
I've seen someone get scared for life all over her face, by using petrol as fuel. Obviously there is nothing I can say to stop you, but you've got a death wish.
:R
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I personally prefer gasoline souly because I'll pay $3 a gallon for gas over $11 a gallon for camp fuel any day.
youre lucky, in the U,K we pay at least £5 a gallon which is $8.32 ,
stick to paraffin for your chux tho
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Sorry Berserkergang, but I had to delete your post. I couldn't allow a post promoting the use of petrol as a fire spinning fuel. Obviously if you want to spin with it, that's fine; I just don't want someone new to come to the forum and think that it's safe. It is so much more dangerous it's unbelievable. You can put matches out in glasses of paraffin...
:R
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If someone could help me to get flames that last a little longer that would be great, I've been using cotton terry cloth wrapped tight and kerosene as fuel, and the flames last a max of about 2 minutes. When I am preparing to burn I dip the end of the chucks in kerosene for about 10 seconds, making sure to get it all over the cloth, then I let them sit for about 30 seconds then burn. Should I be waiting longer or soaking them longer, or do I need more cloth?
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Herro djh157 :-) You will want to first change to kevlar or techora. Cotton is UNSAFE and an accident waiting to happen. The best blend I have used is a mix of 70% Colemans camp fuel, and 30% lamp oil. I usually don't have the cash to burn two different types of fuel, so Colemans is what I use all the time. :nerd:
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Thanks, I'll try that mix for fuel instead. I must ask though, what is wrong with cotton?